Transcript

Jo: Alright. Welcome to another episode of Access 2 Perspectives conversations. Today we have Lauren DeRusha in the room. Thank you very much for joining, Lauren. 

Lauren: Thanks so much for having me. 

Jo: It's a great pleasure. So everyone meet Lauren who is an entrepreneur, business owner, coach, life coach, healer. She likes to pronounce a pro dom who takes clients on a journey deep into the heart of themselves, which is basically the vertex. And we'd like to hear about the journey that brought you here to build your own business, to provide services of what nature and what is the vortex, how do we get in? And tell us about yourself. 

Lauren: Yeah, I'd love to. So my journey that brought me here is that I lived for about 30 years of my life in a state of pretty severe dishonesty. I experienced a lot of trauma in my childhood and I developed a lot of coping mechanisms that I had no consciousness of. And I was a deep people pleaser. And I was really living a life that was absolutely not for me, it was for other people. And I constructed a serious life that looked from the outside to be extremely successful. I had the marriage and the house and I was climbing the nonprofit ladder in my social justice career and I was deeply miserable. And I had an experience where I was talking to a healer and intuitive where I accidentally confessed my deep sexual desires, which were very kinky and I had so much shame about them. And when I realized that I wasn't going to die of shame, when I admitted the truth about what my deep desires were, it started unraveling an entire very long thread. And the more that I pulled on this thread, I realized that I was deeply repressed and I was not just not telling the truth about my sexuality, I was not telling the truth about basically anything. I had no access to any part of myself that didn't fit into a box that I had deemed was good, that would make me lovable and good, a good person. And as I started exploring my shadow, the pieces of myself that I had been repressing and denying for a really long time, my life started completely turning around. And I decided to leave my marriage and ultimately to leave my job and to leave the city where I was living and sort of started over. And it's been on that journey that I have discovered a state and deep knowledge and deep healing so that we can be much more authentically ourselves.

Jo:  You spoke about the trauma experience and how then you recognize it and learn how to get out of the little box that you mentioned, realize that you had put yourself into a box of expectations, what you thought was good behavior.

Lauren: So my process of starting to understand the different parts inside myself, including parts that aren't so pretty, parts that my Catholic upbringing taught me, would send me straight to hell, parts that made me believe that I would be deeply unlovable if I showed them to anyone, so I couldn't even show them to myself. That process completely transformed my life and brought me to a totally new place. And in the process of all of this discovery, I also found access to a state of consciousness that I like to call the vortex. And I consider the vortex to be a place that all of us can access, where we are touching our own divinity, essentially, where we have access to our highest self and where we have access to deep, deep intuition and insight, and we can do incredibly powerful healing on ourselves when we have access to that state. 

Jo: Wow. Okay, that sounds big. I don't know if I've been there ever before in this lifetime, and it sounds a bit spiritual. You also mentioned that you have a Catholic upbringing. Some of us are religious. I'm not. I try to emphasize also what we discussed before the recording, that people need their tribes, people need communities. And religions, by their very nature, are such tribes and communities that provide protection, social what is it? Belonging. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Jo: And they can also be harmful to the individual. I think also the same with research communities like in other episodes, for those who have listened to the show before, are in the academic system. We are well aware of the pressures in the system, the pressure to publish the incentive system as measures and metrics oriented. And there's a lack of attention to quality as compared to quantity, which causes a lot of trauma, actually, on the individuals like the researchers, because they are stuck in that incentive system and the only way out is to perform or to leave academia. And that drives many of us into serious mental health issues. In that sense, I think scholars can maybe not so easily, but can actually relate to what you describe. If we see academia or certain research community as a tribe or as a community similar to a religious community with dogmas with expectations to individual, with regulations and principles many of which can also be good principles for cognition, for quality assurance, for learning and

growth. And there's also certain pressure points which are part of the equation and at some point they can easily become toxic.

Lauren:  Right. And I think that there's inherently pieces of that system where there are often expectations placed on people that are impossible to meet. And when we can't meet those expectations, we're told we're wrong and bad.

Jo:  Not good enough. 

Lauren: Exactly. 

Jo: You don't meet our expectations. We don't belong here. And that some people feel isolated and sad and lonely and all of that misery. What was the turning point for you? What made you realize or was an individual like a person or something you read that gave you a hint of, hey, it's not me who's wrong, it's the community I'm in, or the thought pattern that I'm trapped in.

Lauren: I think that for me, the moment that happened in my life was the moment when I was with that healer. And I just was carrying so much deep shame inside of me about the things that I thought made me unlovable. And the first time that I said out loud to another living, breathing human being the things that made me so unlovable, I was sure I was going to die on the spot. I almost had a panic attack. I had to go into the bathroom and I was talking to myself in the mirror, which I've never done before, to be like, you're okay, you're alive. And really the revival of that moment I think was the turning point for me. And then as I continued to start looking more into myself and allowing myself to just say who I am and how I feel in a given moment and that I have parts inside of myself. All of us do. Sometimes I call them creatures, sometimes I call them inner beings. The internal family systems model of therapy calls them parts. But that there are like almost personas inside of us that can come out at certain moments to take over almost. They kind of take the steering wheel and we don't always even notice that they're out. But that having those parts inside of me, including ones that are less pretty or are really selfish or are really lazy or whatever other thing that we might deem a quality that's quote unquote bad, that I still get to love myself and I get to love those parts of myself. I think that was the biggest transition I had. And that helped me to then see the broader context of the fact that, oh, all of these other communities that I'm a part of, I'm not a part of the church anymore. But at the time, I was part of a nonprofit community who I think there's a lot of parallels to academia in just like there's a lot of very specific standards. There's a way that things are done. There's a kind of person you're supposed to be, and everyone is on board with that. And if you fall outside the standard, you can be completely ostracized. And the truth is that all of us are outside the standard. All of us have parts of us that fall outside the standard. All of us have parts that resent the way that things are, that disagree with the way that things are and that's our shadow. And once I started to understand, oh, the problem is not that I'm the only one who has shadow and I'm the only one who's bad and I have to hide, I realized everyone's hiding. That's actually just what's happening here. When we have such a kind of dogma that's so intense, where we believe there's so much charge around how something has to be and how people have to be, that's actually usually an indication that there's deep shadow there and that there is a lot of denial going on in the collective. 

Jo: Wow, okay. That is intense because it sounds so familiar from academia and other communities. I think it's also part of human nature to gather in communities because we need each other as a support system either in the family structure and then also in the wider community on the village level or cities and wherever political parties can be your neighbors on nonprofits.

Interesting. Okay, so just briefly coming back to when you mentioned that even like let's talk about purpose because I feel like many researchers feel they step into their purpose by choosing a research topic. Like when I ask PhD students early in their career, in their first or second year, and they ask, why did you become a researcher? They either say, oh, because I'm curious, because I enjoy research, because it allows me to stay curious and to explore. It's almost like a childlike behavior to foster it throughout adulthood. And that's admirable. And then the other half almost, I feel it's 50 50 says I want to save the world, I want to cure a disease, I want to contribute my part to make this place a lot of place. I want to work towards justice, gender equity, you name it. So that's very focus oriented. And yet they find themselves in their second and third year trapped in the system that's purely metrics oriented and that they could really handle not on the quality of the work but the output they produce.

Okay, so that's one trauma that the system brings to the table. But your work now as a coach doesn't focus on traumas that arise throughout our careers and encounters in our lifetime. Are you more focused on childhood traumas in households? And influence maybe forms our career decisions. Okay, coming back to the purpose question, I'm asking a lot of questions,

So one approach to look at it would be we have child traumas, we try to compensate for them by choosing a certain career path, for example, in the nonprofit sector or academia for the same reason. Or we are fine, we have a safe upbringing and happy family, and then we get trapped in a traumatic environment or traumatic environment. I think there were other questions that I touched on before, but pick whichever you can. 

Lauren: I work with people mostly to uncover the places where we're not even aware that experiences from our past have shaped us in a way that's really limiting in ways that have basically taught us that we're unlovable. And so I think it's really interesting what you were saying a minute ago about how and why people choose their careers. And I think for me, I think there's a question of deep uncovering that needs to happen for us to find clarity of our purpose. And I think that sometimes we can get locked into careers and paths that may not actually be for us, but we have some system of belief that tells us why we have to. And I think in my case, yes, I was driven to be a social justice champion in ways that were actually really incongruent. I was not in alignment when I was in that part of my career and I just believed that it was what I had to do to be a good person, quite honestly. And as I have done a lot of work to uncover my own trauma in my own past and understand all the ways that it was preventing me from loving myself and being my most authentic version of myself, I realized I do have a mission in this world, and I have a deep, deep purpose. And it's actually much scarier than the thing I thought I was doing. It was really easy to direct the campaign for Water justice because no one ever heard about what I did for work and didn't immediately say oh my God, you're such a good person. Now people hear what I do for work and are often pretty scandalized because I include the realm of sexuality in my work and there's a lot of shadow around that. And so it's actually taken a lot more courage for me to find what my true alignment was. And so I think that one element is to find ways where we can be really honest about what is our purpose and what is actually driving us to do that work and is it actually coming from a deep place. I also loved what you said about childlike curiosity. I think that that's a beautiful indication actually of being on a purposeful path when we're so lit up by something we can't stop thinking about it. We want to know every single thing about it. I think that's a beautiful driver for the work that people might choose to get into, especially research. And then there's this additional thing about how do you stay in that place of childlike joy and interest and curiosity and passion when we're inside of a system that is consistently putting trauma onto us. And I think that is one of the best ways to deal with that. There's not a good solution. I don't have a great idea for how to solve it unfortunately.

Jo:  Don't worry about that. It's making a transition also with the work that I do and many others. There's a movement going on in academia for the open science movement and it's nothing new really, it's just about good scientific practices, but inevitably digital tools and the Internet, which is fairly confusing to many of us. And there's many service providers, many stakeholders involved, many pressure points, power, place going on for the researchers. They're confusing and many feel lost in the realm of opportunities and threats that come with it. But my job is fixed, but also to bridge the unconscious world. You also mentioned the divine like to get in touch in the vortex we call the vortex. And I think it's also a term used by other life coaches, practitioners, and healers. And this whole world of spiritualism is like a taboo for researchers by the mission. And it took me a while. Like joining an entrepreneurial community, learning about where we actually met, learning about what you just said, how we are changed in our upbringing and historical events that led to certain governmental structures and political systems of Western societies in both our cases and in other parts of the world. Other political systems, not so much Western, but driven by either Monetary incentives, power, greed; are all these still virtues, but negatives? I don't know

What brought us women or heart centered people generally into an inferior position and having to liberate ourselves to get in touch and into the water, get in touch with our purpose without our divine calling, whatever you name it. So again, this is all very borderline for researchers and I'm just learning about these things and trying to unlearn what I was kind of dogmatized to ignore in this world and always felt there's something that's missing in this puzzle. Right? Just to throw this in the big question after I don't know how many centuries and millennial research going on, not millennia, but one millennium for sure, that's documented. We can answer what's the spark of life, what feelings are. I mean, we can measure feelings and hormones roaming around our blood system and circulatory system, but like, what are thoughts, where are they housed in our cavities called bodies? And what happens after death? No research would be able to answer any of that. Like not psychologists, not biologists, no one. Like we can see the heartbeat early on in development, but when and how that starts, you can probably observe but the spark of life. And I hope we'll never be able to answer that question because there's also views in the unknown. Okay. But the spiritual coaches in our societies are very much in contact with these things, maybe not having the answers, but allowing for unmeasurable powers to be part of our realities. Okay, so this is kind of quite an excursion for many of the listeners, but good luck with now finding a response to that. I'll just drop the ball or not drop, but I'll hand it over to you. 

Lauren: Yeah, it's such an interesting challenge. I think that to speak to the incredulous folks for a moment, I think a place where the world of coaching and spirituality and where they intersect can often do a disservice in our society is where we have this image of light and love and good vibes only. I think that a lot of times that can give us a reaction, especially for people who are academic minded, who are deeply science minded, who, you know, are, like, talk to me when there's some evidence, it's totally reasonable. And I think that sometimes when we just sort of see this world projected, you know, like social media influencers who are coaches. And there's just sort of this projection of, like, life can be perfect if only you just follow me, or if only you just manifest better. If only you just visualize. If only you just keep the good vibes only. And I think that's a really important thing to name. I think that in and of itself is the shadow of the industry and that, like, actually the work of spirituality, the work of personal development is so disgusting. It's so messy. It's so beautiful. It's not pretty at all. It's not like, Yay, life of my dreams. I just, like, did some magical thing that I figured out. But no, you can't. It always fails for you, but I figured out how to do it. I think that actually the truth of where our development happens, which for me is deeply spiritual, but I don't think that everyone has to experience it that way. I think personal development can also be considered in a realm that's deeply psychological. And if that doesn't feel like it has a spiritual component for people, that's fine. I think it's still the same work. And that is the really disgusting, uncomfortable process of getting to know ourselves and looking into the places where we'd really rather not look that we have parts that are really trying to protect us from bringing our awareness to. 

Jo: Thank you for finding the words. I think we managed to hopefully get back in touch with some of the many because this is a brief anecdote. When I was doing my master's thesis in that lab it was very much molecular biology. And we had a researcher who, like, I specialize in evolutionary biology, which seems contrary to anything theological, but we had a colleague in the lab who was very much a religious Christian. What kind of divided personality must that be? I often ask him, how do you bring your beliefs and your research into one body, really? Or personality? Like, how do you balance the two? I can't remember exactly the answer, but it sort of makes sense, what he said, okay, if it works for you, it's fine. I can tolerate that. I just don't understand. But fine. But okay. So we have religious people, scientists, we have spiritual people, scientists. I think what you just said also allows for rational, like 100% rational people to find their personalities and to find their purpose and to learn about themselves what they need desire, and to allow themselves to voice there to other people and be authentic first to themselves and then also to people they care about. So what's the typical, I don't know, how do you work with your clients and what's your success rate? Or make it measurable again? I think every staff in self development, like, is better coached or mentored by somebody else who has a mirror and not to get trapped in some sort, but also, yeah, every step is a way forward. Or is it a step forward in the right direction towards or inward into the vertex? Is there ever a destination? Again, now I'm fully authentic. Or is it a journey until we die?

Lauren: I think inherently, yes, it's a journey until we die. But I also think that there are stages, like levels that we can get to that feel like really big breakthroughs where we're going to kind of stay on that level for a long time and then there's always more to do. But for me, the way I think about it, what's been my personal experience and the experience I've had with clients is like, yeah. And I like the imagery used, like kind of going down into the vortex. That's how I conceptualize it too. It's like we're starting at the ground level and at the ground level we have all of these protectors who are with us, who are a part of these inner beings, who are part of our system, who we are usually not even conscious of. And those parts often can look like Saboteurs. They are the ones who come up with excuses about why we shouldn't move something forward in our life. You're about to, you know, when you like, blow the job interview or you don't set your alarm correctly, or this person who you really want to connect with, you have some opportunity to make an important connection for your career, for your personal life. And that day you just really feel so tired and suddenly you're like the sovereign of selfcare. And for the first time in six months, you're going to, like, prioritize your self care by taking a nap and you cancel the appointment. You know, we're all guilty of those kinds of moments. And in the moment when we're doing it, the saboteur who's out is extremely compelling in our mind at that moment, it's the only choice, like, or not even conscious that we're setting our alarm wrong or whatever that manifests. Sometimes those parts are protecting us from the fear of what would happen, like the unknown that could happen if we actually moved ourselves forward along our path. And we're really until we become conscious and start to develop relationships with those parts of ourselves so that we can make them conscious and then actually be able to communicate with them. This is such a funny thing. Also, people feel very incredulous about it because it sounds very silly to have a dialogue with someone who's inside of myself. But my experience of it has been that it's just, it's true and it's very productive. But until we can make those parts conscious, we can't actually do anything about them. They're going to keep showing up in our lives and controlling how we are in the world, and are going to continue limiting us to the only experience that we know. And there are ways that our experience of trauma from our past is deeply integrated into that. But if we want to break out of the pattern of knownness, even those patterns are not always serving us. Often they're not serving us, but they're safe to the ones in our system. I learned as a child how to keep myself safe in a certain kind of situation. And so those parts in me, they're very well practiced. I can handle all sorts of horrific stuff, but I don't always know how to handle really good stuff. I don't know how to handle it when I receive the love and affection that I deserve, or in the case of my career, I don't actually know how to handle it. If I had a supervisor who was really super supportive of me and gave me the leeway to do the work that I want to do in the way that I want to do it, that to my system is actually much more dangerous than the known grind of all the things that feel abusive and really frustrating to me. And so the work that we have to do is to like, understand that we have all these guardians, these unconscious parts inside of us controlling what we get to do. And as we start to make those parts conscious, develop relationships with them, understand how they are protecting us and really appreciate them for the ways that they've been keeping us safe. They've been holding on to a lot of pain actually. They start to become integrated and so they're not so often coming out and taking the steering wheel in ways that I don't notice. And that allows me to kind of drop a layer deeper into my truer self, into my higher self or my in the Ifs model, like the selfled part of me which is akin to what I call the vortex. And as I go deeper and deeper, I'm discovering more parts. And as you go down, it's like the deeper pain that we're holding that maybe we weren't ready to look at two years ago when we started our personal development journey. But as we can show the different parts in our system that we actually can handle the truth of our own pain, that is how we can start to become free from it and free from the limitations that otherwise keep us trapped in the box. And the more and more we practice, the more access we have to the vortex or to our more authentic selves. And that is the journey. I can't imagine that it could ever be finished, but I do feel like there's a set of skills that we can learn. And so that's the way that I work with clients is not to say, like, well, it's a lifelong journey. So you're going to be my client for the next 50 years, usually six months or a year until I feel like they have a handle on the skills. And then you can be off to the races and just continue to do the work on your own. 

Jo: That makes sense. I would like to first ask; you mentioned an acronym IFS model. What's that? 

Lauren: Yeah, that's Internal Family Systems, which is a model of therapy that was developed by a man named Dick Schwartz. And it's this concept of we all have a system, a family system inside of us that's made up of different parts, and those parts all have a job to do, and inevitably, they're all about protecting us. And so it can be really easy for us to hate on the parts of ourselves that we think are wrong and bad or we get frustrated with because they keep sabotaging us. But actually, mostly they're all just little kids who need to be loved, you know? 

Jo: Yeah, totally agreed. Because I went to Brian Haman Hessel. Yeah, because I went to Hermann Hessel school in Berlin. And Ham Hessler is a German German author, but it has been widely translated into all kinds of languages and dissimilar to various countries, including the United States. I don't know if you've heard about it. If you haven't, please read the Step on Wolf, because he speaks there that every human being, the message he really has, and it's all not only good and bad, but hundreds and thousands of different personalities. But basically what you refer to as some people call them demons. Some people call them, as you said, it's actually not demons, but protectors, guardians who eventually can't decide anymore or can't differentiate between good and bad, but they protect us either way. Yeah, so I think that's an interesting literature that has managed over the centuries, centuries to capture the wisdom that we have in each of our cultures. And it's nothing new that you teach and learn for others to benefit from your expertise, to get in touch with ourselves.

Okay, so, yeah, Haman, Hassel and Herman is interesting also because he's widely read in Germany, because we're so proud of our authors and cultural legacy, positive ones, not the obvious. Anyway, there's more to us than Germany, and that's been very unfortunate, to say at least. But then I heard also, like when I said I admire. For his work and all the books carry some spirituality lectures, lessons, some to be shared, get in touch with our staff on a lifelong journey. So maybe it's a good reference book for coaches like yourself or several books thereof, and other authors for sure as well. But then some people told me, Haman Hassel I also read him as a kid or as a teenager, but at some point you grow out of that mindset. Seriously, I admire him so much. I really don't want to grow older if that's what I'm going to lose as a result. And sad for you, it's your loss. But anyway.

Lauren: I think that sometimes I'm not familiar with the author and that work in particular, but I think that sometimes we, here's what I think. When we have something, we encounter something and we're like, that's not for me, it just doesn't interest me. It doesn't do anything for me and there's no charge around it, then, yeah, I believe you, that thing is not for you. But when we have such a strong visceral reaction to something like that's not for me. I would never; that's for babies. That's for kids. A serious grownup would never consider that. To me, that's actually an indication that there's a shadow there and that there's a protector cart showing up who is really, really far out of their way to make sure that we don't look in that place. That's really interesting. I always noticed that about myself and I hate to see it when I see it because I hate that. And then I'm like, oh no, what is it? There's too much charge around that. And it means that probably somewhere inside some part of me that I have disowned really, really, actually likes that or really believes that. But I'm afraid of allowing myself to access it. 

Jo: And I’ve also come to realize now in my forties. Maybe it's also an age thing to come to realization of certain things that influence us in our lifetime or what other people refer to as wisdom as we grow older. And some get it sooner, others later. It's a blessing to get it eventually. Whenever I came to realize it's exactly what you said, like all, even the world is just fear and self protection. And I would go so far as even Hitler was full of fear and for the fear and violence and not even himself, but ordering others to be violent against society and expanding from there.

Lauren: Yeah, that's the same. I think there's a big similarity to Trump in the US. And just the way that those kinds of personalities can tap into the collective shadow and these parts of us that are largely unconscious, when there's someone in a leadership position who's saying, who's touching that part, it activates this darkness inside of us as a collective. And I think that our best defense against leaders like that and the tragedies that come from it is actually our own personal, individual, internal work to see. Where do we have shadows? Where do I have a shadow of racism, where do I have a shadow of sexism, where do I have any kind of shadow? Because we all have them inside of us and it's not our fault. It's not our fault, but they're inside of us. And until we can acknowledge it with some degree of consciousness, then we can integrate it, then we can have eyes on it, then we cannot fall into the zombie army that's going to cause so much true harm in the world. 

Jo: Yeah, exactly. I totally agree with that. So you mentioned leadership. I started it on a national level and then very well. Yeah. So just briefly closing the circle on team leadership, which again boils down to any sector as well as academia. So bad leaders or insufficient leadership? Also academia, group leaders, principal investigators, who often supervise not one or two, but several PhD students, technical assistants, I've never learned any leadership skills, get onto it and find themselves doing a lot of administrative work. And we will have, and we do have also focused episodes talking about leadership in academia and with leadership practices in general. But looking at leadership from your point of view, like, is it true? Maybe it's a yes or no answer. Would you agree that bad leadership also often resides from what we discussed here? Like, those people who get into power positions and turn out to be bad leaders, often full of fear and insecurity. And how can we change that as communities? 

Lauren: That's a great question. I think it's a product of two things. I think one is just that you named this problem. There are protocols that exist, there's training that exists on how to be a good leader and a good manager of teams and projects and often just the way that the system works. When people are good at doing a job, they get promoted without actually being trained on how to be good at being a manager. So that's like one thing that I think obviously is a big part of it. And then I think in addition to that, it's like there's this double whammy of them. The fact that, yeah, there are often when we are unintegrated in our shadow, when we do not have eyes on the parts of ourselves that are terrified or are power hungry, are greedy, are threatened by women or any other demographic of people, when we don't have eyes on that, it's going to come out. When we have more authority and power that we accumulate for ourselves, the darker that shadow is going to be when it gets expressed. In addition, like the training, that's obviously a big part of the problem. I do think that shadow integration work can make a big difference in how people manage themselves and therefore have the capacity to manage teams. 

Jo: I'm getting it because just recently I heard from a family member that another family member was not with us anymore. It's been a while. Long generation before us was, like, the most humble and caring and loving personality, but then in a leadership position, made everybody cry and kind of dismantled the whole good leadership structure into something that was highly toxic or devastating…

Lauren: almost like two different personalities. 

Jo: And obviously full of analysis. Like, he was probably full of fear of doing anything wrong because he was not fit for the job. Like, not for the topic that the company was in charge with and also not for the leadership position because it came from a totally different professional context. 

Lauren: Right. That makes a lot of sense, especially, I think fear is one of the biggest motivators for causing harm. 

Jo: It really just felt bad. So, listeners, a lot of things to process here to digest or analyze on your real world reality circuses.

Wow. Thank you so much, Lauren. It's been quite a conversation, really. Would you like maybe, whoever feels intrigued to explore your work further, would you like to share a little bit more about what and how you work? I mean, we discussed a little bit and how people can reach you. We will share your details and the Dark has not found his position. How can people get in touch with you? 

Lauren: Yeah, you can find me at my website is Enter the vortexx with two Xs.com. Yeah. 

Jo: Is there a reason for the two? 

Lauren: What did you say? 

Jo: Why two X's in the vortex.

Lauren: To clarify that it's like, a little bit sexy, but it's also a little bit classy. Okay, this would be too much. I would love to invite folks to reach out to me and schedule a call if you're interested in talking more about what working with me looks like. I offer in, like, one off sessions where we do deep in person role play work to get to the heart of the places where you have some experience or some trauma in your past that's holding you back. To really go deep into that place and look at it and to find the spot where we stopped loving ourselves and to learn how to make a different choice. To start loving ourselves and to do some of the work of re parenting and being able to give ourselves the care that we, in most cases, didn't actually receive the way we needed. And I also do work that's six months coaching packages where we're going a lot broader to unpack and to spend some time with all of those different parts so that we can learn how to develop relationships with them and help get everybody onto the same team so that we don't have so much self sabotage showing up. 

Jo: Thank you. And also thanks again for allowing us these insights into the work that you do, the expertise you have, and let's all be more authentic and self loving and appreciating so we can be kinder to each other in the work and personal relationships that we all have and maintain and develop and time to come. Thanks so much, Lauren. And again, hopefully.

Lauren: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.