A conversation with Natasha Martinoska
A conversation with Natasha Martinoska
Jo: Welcome everyone and welcome Natasha Martinoska to today's episode.
Natasha: Thank you so much Jo, I so enjoy being here with you.
Jo: It's really great to have you. So everyone, meet Natasha, she's the life coach. And yeah, basically I leave it to you to introduce yourself. You specialize in happiness and relationships, finding life work balance, increasing self worth and overcoming conflict and closing energy leaks, health and wellbeing and spiritual loss. Generally speaking and very much also relevant in the academic world for those who listened to previous episodes of this show, that we often dig into wellbeing topics and how to maintain regain mental wellbeing, physical wellbeing or to use physical exercises to preserve also mental well being, to be able to perform as academics in highly demanding working environment that it is So yeah, we're keen to hear what you can share with us on the topic and please let's maybe start with what's the short version of your journey? Why did you become a life coach and do the work that you now do? Like, what is the story behind your profession?
Natasha: That's a great question Jo, thank you for that. Originally I am also coming from the academic world because higher education was very important for my parents and I was always supportive to educate myself and to study. And I finished economics university in Macedonia, the country where I'm coming from in south east Europe. And then I continued and I got my master in international business. And thanks to my study, I worked in a bank and I worked for seven years in a corporate job. I was married to my job, I was working twenty four seven, and I was quite successful because I was one of the first generation who was hired to build up a bank from scratch in Macedonia. And this bank came from Germany, from Frankfurt. The name of the bank is Procredibank and they had operations overall in 25 countries. And I was very good at recognizing people in their qualities and seeing them in their needs. And that was the reason why I was promoted in my careers. And I got higher functions every two years. So my last function was regional manager for South Macedonia and I had like six branches and about 100 people in the region. I have always been people oriented. I love also to work according to the rules, but somehow sometimes the rules have to serve the client, the people. And the more I advance in the hierarchy in the bank, I have experienced that the profit for the shareholder was more important than the wellbeing of people and that people were like instruments to achieve that. And I have always had the idea that when people are seen and understood in the strongest quality, then an organization is becoming like a magnet to clients and that is a win-win combination. So in the bank I felt the real purpose of destiny which I have in my life, but it was not my end station. And my answer to my real purpose and mission came when I met my husband, who was already an experienced senior coach, business consultant, and psychologist with many years of experience. And by deciding to choose my love for him and coming with him to live in the Netherlands. I found my purpose because in the coaching sessions, I saw how people really get empowered to spread their wings and step up for who they are and what they believe in. Because you see, I was educated in fear in the bank and there are people who are keeping themselves small and they didn't dare to show up in their self expression because of fear, to be punished or not to be taken seriously. Perhaps that was something typical for my culture where I'm coming from because Macedonia has years of history, of being enslaved by other countries, perhaps still the mentality of people. But I noticed that by living by fear we are not achieving our purpose. And if you really want to manifest our talents and develop our qualities that we need to feel free in ourselves and to be free in our sense expression and also to create in our life because we people are very rich with many qualities and different talents which like to be developed in us. And life is more than just having a job because that career is one need which we have but next to that we also need to get less on time, to enjoy happy relationships, to put our health a priority. Because in the bank I felt if I go on like this with this lifestyle because I was not eating well and I was not taking care of myself, I thought I would earn money because I had a high salary and lots of tasks and great network but I was not taking care of myself. And I noticed that if I go on with this kind of tempo in my life, later I will get sick and that is not what I wanted. And that's why I also realized life is just more than having a career because I was really a career woman.
Jo: Also in academia, I think where I lived in Germany, I don't think so much in Sweden, where I did two years of my undergraduate studies, there was also a game changer to see that another academic reality and professional lifestyle is possible. Like Sweden is, I think it is very family friendly in many sectors and also academia, but in Germany it's very competitive, I think also in the banking system from what I heard, and in academia as well. And you're expected to make a decision between building a family or building a career as a researcher. So there's not much encouragement to have a family. There's of course a few who try and they struggle often also to find a place to work in like a city or country because there's only short term contracts, usually for one or two or three years, and then the whole family needs to move. So it's not very friendly as a profession.
Natasha: Yes, sorry. Many of my managers came from Germany because the bank was originally of German origin and they were very highly successful women, but who spent 12 hours per day on the job and they hardly had relationships with families. And yes, that was strange for me, like, strange, because I'm educated in a country where a family plays an important role in life. And I noticed that career and hard work was a high priority for these people. But if we only spend more time developing only one aspect of our life for a longer time, we will dry out in other aspects.
Jo: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It took a few years before I internalized this concept of everybody having the same amount of time. Each of us is 24 hours. So that's also kind of like recently, I've also developed a rejection against this. And when I hear somebody say, I don't have time for something, I say, Come on, we all have an equal amount of time, or none, if you wish, but you make time for something that you think is important. But then if you live and find yourself in a working environment that does not provide space to make time for building a family or to breathe and recreate, like for recreational activities during the workday, we become robots. And that's when we start developing mental health issues and in some cases disorders, and in some cases even like, threatening.
Natasha: Yes. I'm so happy that you went through that stage. Yes. That you find out that there's also a purpose. I'm happy for you.
Jo: So then how do you define work life balance? What is a good example or a healthy balance between work and life? Working? Whatever life is, I consider work as part of life if we think about work as purposeful and fulfilling. So I've always found it strange to see the two separate from each other because we're still the same human being and we might get calls from our spouse or the kids. So the two always I don't think it's possible to fully separate the two from each other as a human being. But of course we need to set boundaries and I think that's what the whole concept is about. But please tell us what's your take?
Natasha: Yes, that is a very personal choice. You see, it's a very personal, individual choice, what people experience, what is balanced for them. So I can speak in general, what is my idea about that, but at least for the ones who are listening, they really have to find out what is the best for them. Especially, I find that as a woman, it's very difficult to raise a family and also to have a high career development. And happily, for example, in the Netherlands, when I came to live here, it was new that women work for two or three weeks, three days in a week because for me it was always normal to work five days a week. So I find that at the same time that for a woman it is also important to have a career and not only to be a mother. Because I see that women who are only mothers, they get the worthiness or acknowledgement in life only from being a mother and then they put high expectations on children later on for being high achievers in order to compensate, in order to feel that they are good mothers. And that is also not a good idea to only become a mother without her career. So I think that putting our talents in the service of others is giving us energy. And it is important to define for every person. I think it is important for every person to define what is their talents, what are their strongest qualities and how they can put this in service of address and in which kind of profession they can also earn with this. And finding the right balance between service and paying attention to relationships and family is very important for mental health. And I think that choice. It doesn't have to be 50 50, it can be 70 30, it can be 30 70. It has to do with the quality and not with the quantity. But both aspects have to be well managed.
Jo: Yeah, okay, so here when you say well managed, it is also how you work with your clients to work on the time management in both areas professionally
Natasha: It's not about time management, it's also about how they have to feel what's right for them. Of course they have to put priorities in what is most important for them and of course they have to manage that time well. At the same time they have to manage their energy well and that is what is more important. So how much energy they spend in their work and how much energy they spend at home and most of the time when we are doing things we love, that is giving us energy, it's not costing us energy. So I learned people to do activities and engage in things which are really satisfying and which are increasing their energy levels.
Jo: One aspect, if I understand you right, you have them see or find the purpose in the work that they do so that they don't see it as an energy drain.
Natasha: Yes, exactly.
Jo: Okay, beautiful. And then I mentioned time management because from what I heard, I can relate. I don't have children on my own, but I have dogs and dogs. My children don't like to be left behind and alone to themselves or care of somebody else but the owner. So any parents out there, please excuse the comparison, but what I heard also from parents is they always feel guilty when they work, not being able to spend enough time, whatever enough means with their children. Do you see any clients, like, if they see a purpose in the work that they do, that not draining the energy at the workplace helps to ease that pressure. Also because, I mean, one thing is also to find an employer who is more flexible with time. So that we can work for instead of five days a week or we can have, like, instead of 8 hours, just 6 hours a week. And then maybe do a little bit of home office work where we can still find time to prepare dinner or lunches for the kids. So that sounds like yet again from the time aspect, what's a good strategy you would suggest.
Natasha: I have lately had many clients who are also self employed moms and they can divide their time in the way they like and that is what I'm meeting mostly and that is not a privilege for everybody. But children need to know that moms are available. For example, the parents are available but it doesn't have to be all the time around them as long as they feel that availability and attention, the moments they need. Children understand also when parents have to work because I educate families or parents that everybody is contributing to the wellbeing of the family. For example, the parents are working and they're bringing the money in the family. For example, the father is bringing the money in the family, the mother is also working and taking care of the household. Or they have divided tasks. And in this way they contributed to the wellbeing of the family and children contributed also to the welding of the family by giving their best at school and doing also their work, so they can work together in unity and that they also can also be involved in the decisions which are made in the family. For example, I had one situation where a mother wanted to work from 3 hours three days a week to four days a week. And then the whole family had to consult about this possibility because that would mean that the rest of the family have to take over some of the possibilities of the mother and by consultation, when they bring the decision as unity and when all stay behind the decision, then the mom can work without feeling guilty.
Jo: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Natasha: Yes, because family is one unity and everybody has to be involved in decisions which are influencing the whole family.
Jo: Yeah, I like that. There's basically also a management approach to include everyone who is a stakeholder from project management speech or talk to let them be part of the decision making and weighing in their arguments for if this can work for me or not because ABC and then there might be compromises to be made.
Natasha: Yes, then people can evaluate the decision and see if it is harmonious or not.
Jo: Yeah, and I feel the same is important for the family to have a say in whatever affects them as well as also the employer and the team in the business setting. Because if there is a decision for a mother who's in a team or the team leader to decide to work more from home and also fewer hours, then that workload needs to be compensated by the others in some way. I'm just pointing out the opportunity for collective decision making instead of one making a decision and informing the others, but to encourage all of us to consider who has a stake in this, who's affected by whatever decision I'm about to make, and how can I make them feel respected for their needs and how it may affect them and allow them to have a say and to be prepared for what's going to come their way? Yeah, nice, that makes very much sense. Okay, happiness is a theme in your consulting and coaching approach. What does happiness mean to you and how do you work around happiness with your clients?
You see a notice of happiness. Happiness comes from progress, from action and it comes from Over winning ourselves and growing in ourselves on a higher level, on a higher dimension and that gives us fulfillment. So happiness is not something that comes to us from nothing. We have to work for it and we have to deserve it. And oftentimes we are faced with different challenges because life wants that we grow and that we learn and that we develop. You see, life is never standing still like everything in nature is growing and dying or dying also. We people develop and grow to the next level or we stagnate but every stagnation is actually going backwards. So by solving the challenges in a positive way and overcoming difficulties, we feel happiness. And that can be in our work, that can be in our relationships, that can be in relationship with our friends. So the overcoming of challenges and the progress we are booking, that is what really makes us happy. And we have to become equipped for that. We have to become equipped in that and how to see problems as challenges and to understand that life is happening for us to learn in each and every situation. And sometimes people experience problems as being painful and they get stuck in that kind of thing. And when they don't pick up the lesson and they don't learn how to deal with situations that are causing problems and people don't accept reality and they go to protest or they go to resist, or when they go to reject or deny what is going on in their life that is causing suffering. Because when we cannot accept how life is pertaining to us and we have conflict with what is happening, we suffer. And I teach people to know how to deal with conflicts, to recognize what is the lesson behind and to implement that in their life so that they can grow in that aspect and yeah, that is giving happiness.
Jo: Yeah, I can relate to that. So what I hear from you is that happiness is closely tied to satisfaction about our own achievements. So that's one thing, also being able to resolve conflicts when they arrive and not get trapped in them. So letting go of the armor like self defensiveness but instead seeing opportunities for peace building kind of relationship.
Natasha: Yes. And it is not that in relationships, for example, because they give relationship advice to people in a relationship it's not our partner's responsibility to make us happy, it is our own responsibility to make us happy. And it is not our responsibility to make our partner happy. It is his or her responsibility to make himself happy so that we can connect from a place of giving or giving in a relationship and not to come in relationship because of having the need to take something. So two people have to be already fulfilled when they come together. They will have synergy and they like to share that happiness and that is a good basis for a relationship. So yeah, the principal has to be giving and not taking and not wanting the other people, the other person has to make us whole so that it will not work because the other person cannot make us whole. We have to make ourselves whole.
Jo: I shared with you earlier in every conversation for this podcast I have this moment of oh my gosh, I see something new. So you emphasize your self worth and self respect before we engage with others and then what I wanted to share also is okay, let me start somewhere else. So what if a couple gets together quite early in their lives where they might come with need to be fulfilled, or where they expect? Or I need somebody else's shoulder to lean on. I need somebody else's power and strength to make it in this life or through difficulties that I otherwise wouldn't be able to cope with on my own. So I feel like many relationships out there are very much on a needs based approach that people get together, but then can grow into something where both people complement each other. And I think this is what I'm longing for. Or maybe also bounds in some of the relationships, but for another episode or somewhere else to discuss deeper. But do you believe that a needs based relationship can also change into a mutually supportive type of relationship? It's basically coupled consulting or coaching? I think.
Natasha: Yes. You see, we are not educated about relationships, we don't learn it at school, we don't learn it at home and oftentimes we don't have the right role models. And when we get young into a relationship, people connect based on emotions or instincts but we're not like connecting from a higher consciousness and they don't know themselves yet. So we have the right to feel emotions and to share this with our partners. And we have the right to be supported and to be confirmed in the good things that we are doing and also to be understood in the paper experiences. So of course we can share these things. And of course we like to be supported by our partner. But the partner can support us by listening and being there for us and understanding and sometimes can. Also give tips. But responsibility for coming out of that situation is not ours, not from our partner. You see, problems and relationships come when we think the other person has to make us happy. The other person has to be responsible to save us or to achieve our goals for us. That is not going to happen. So then a conflict is happening. So in order to have a happy relationship, you have to have two strong individuals. Who know themselves in their character and who respect each other. But also they have clear borders which may not be crossed. And of course, we can share things, but we may not expect the other one will solve things. For us. And we can have emotional support, but responsibility for solving things is within the individual.
Jo: Yeah, but we can maybe ask for support without expecting that it will be met, right? Natasha: We can always ask for support but we must not make everyone responsible for it.
Jo: Here comes the whole other concept of personal responsibility.
Jo: I already learned about this, yes.
Natasha: In psychology. For example, my husband is a psychologist and he's always telling the one who experiences pain has a problem to solve. So the possibility is within the individual. And we don't blame the other one for not achieving our own mission or goals or for giving up our dreams. That must not happen. Because if we lose ourselves and if we lose our connection with our true purpose and our true mission and our true essence, we will lose the relationship. Because I've seen that happening many times and then many problems are coming out of that.
Jo: Yeah. Like we expect others to fix our problems. Yes. Don't take ownership of our responses.
Jo: And yes. Sometimes we are weak, sometimes we need help, we need support. But is it then on the others only to provide the space and give a little bit of comfort and assistance? But we still need to do the work ourselves. Right?
Natasha: Yes. We may also expect understanding. You see, that because when we share the pain and we speak up the pain, we get free from it. It's not any more suppressed or it is not more in our system. By spinning out we can get free from it and it's a very beautiful experience and when we share it, we can also when we feel understanding, when we feel understood, then we can also that is a healing experience.
Jo: That's already power gain again or strength gain.
Natasha: Yes, emotions have to be shared and by feeling them and speaking them and releasing them. We come out of that pain, which is how to say this, the energy which is coming free from that, it is connected to the positive qualities in us and then we can connect with ourselves in a good way again. So it's a healing experience.
Jo: Again. Hello listeners. If you're wondering what this is like, what's the relation to academia and research workplace again, if you've listened to other podcasts before, the academic workplace is quite a demanding one and whatever personal issues we might have also affects our performance at work and vice versa. We are just one human being carrying all the load and the pressure that we experience at work also kind of fills into our personal lives. So this is maybe now where we can maybe spend a few sentences on how we can protect our personal life from the pressure that we experience at work? Do you have strategies? And maybe it goes back to what we already talked about is from a different viewpoint how can we take personal responsibility? Maybe starting with realizing we are under pressure when we feel stressed and then when we go home, our spouse or our parents or whoever is there, it's not their fault that we experience pressure and harm at work. So how can we be strong enough and take responsibility not to let us fall over into our private life?
Natasha: Yes, that needs some work. I mean, that asks for some increase of consciousness. You see, I teach my clients, for example, to really ask themselves if they are doing things because they really must or they really want to. Because when we do things from must and wanting to prove ourselves, that is so exhausting and so tiring because we are busy to prove that we are good, we are busy to prove that we can achieve those results. We are busy every time trying to prove to ourselves that we are good enough. And that needs to prove it's a huge energy leak because to prove yourself means to reject yourself because you have to every time to confirm that you're doing good enough. And I teach my clients to switch from doing things from must to really ask themselves do I want this? Because when you do the things from your free will, that is giving energy, but when you do the things from a ‘must’, that is costing energy. So that is one thing. Another thing is that I also teach people when they are busy with certain activities to think about the values which are connected to them.
For example, basic things, for example, when somebody is cooking is busy with the value of health, when somebody is working, is busy with the value to serve. Or when you're busy with research, then you are busy to serve a higher purpose and to contribute to a certain organization or certain course or certain research so that you can get results which are of added value to you. And also to others. So if you are busy doing your work, from really wanting to serve and contact you to a higher purpose that is giving energy, it is not exhausting. So I teach people to really connect to their wife, to their true mission, and also to do this from their own free will and not from top down being pressured because otherwise we will lose our faith and we will lose the investment from the investors who are paying that. So that is indeed a high pressure energy. So I teach people to find a different approach to that and different attitudes and also to stand up for what they really feel means and experience and to show up for that. So perhaps it's again a personal responsibility thing, but it is really about if the people need more time or space or resources, they have to communicate that in a good way and on time.
Natasha: Communication is also another important thing, how you communicate.
Jo: Yeah. In all directions, right at home, watch your tone? Yes, but also, do you really need to share everything that's happening at work, at home, with people there? Because they can often not relate to the conflict.
Natasha: Yes. Because people who are just studying so hard, they work so hard, they really are workaholics. Yes. And that can also be very rewarding. But it may not be…
Jo: It's not very satisfying.
Natasha:Yes. In order to be satisfied, that doesn't mean that other areas of life have to be neglected. And I've also found out that the knowledge or the result has to be of added value to you, to the surroundings, to the organization, to other stakeholders, in order to really add value to others. So I think they are such very talented people and very well and hard working and they really need to not be so hard on themselves.
Jo: What do your parents say about what you are doing now? Being hardcore academics themselves? Can they relate to the work that you do now or was there still …
Natasha: My father is still thinking that the banking career was the best for me because I was already a director and I should still be a director and if I stayed there, I should have these five status. And he's still thinking in that system and I don't blame him for that. Understand him and listen to him when he's telling me that and understand that. I told him some time ago that he's still feeling sorry for my banking career.
Jo: I think especially fathers for their daughters, only one security. Because security often comes with a lack of freedom. But yeah, my dad was the same. He was like, oh, make sure you have a good career, study to then make less of money so you will never have to worry about it.
Natasha: Yes. So he teaches me to search for safety outside of myself. He taught me to search for how to say this is my truth. Out of myself in research, in science, in teachers, in professors, I was always searching for my truth out of myself because I was educated to study and I was a good student. So it took a long time in my life until I learned until I went to this personal development and learned more about how life works. And until I really understood to find the truth within my heart and myself. And from there to manifest and to show up my talents and to act on my own free will and not because it's expected from me. And my switch to entrepreneurship was a big surprise to my parents. So yeah, they had to really get used to it.
Jo: And you're mum?. What did she say?
Natasha: She's more supportive now. She's more supportive and she's living with me and she's seen me still hard working sometimes. But when I work for my passion, I don't feel this work because I feel I should do this even if I'm not paid. And that is the difference. So it is very different when you do something because you like it, because that is your passion, because it's your wife, that is your mission. Why are you here on earth? It's a different attitude than when you do something based on expectations of others or asking recognition from others, or being even dependent on approval from others. And that was my education, so I really had to break through that.
Jo: What would you say to a researcher who says that, oh, I only took the academic career because my parents are both academics and they thought that's the only way to go. So I felt I needed to do that to make them happy, to meet their expectations. But I'm actually not happy in academia.
Natasha: Yes, as long as the self esteem is not strongly built in the person, the person will search for safety outside within the system of structures from others to feel significant welcome and loved and also appreciated. I advise people if they have a voice in the heart which tells them that they are bored for something more or different, to really investigate that, because we are all born with unique talents and gifts and we develop them in different life stages. And it can be that when the other qualities in the person want to be developed that people can change profession, they can change the place of living, they can change relationships. So I see people spending their whole life chasing some symbols because they were educated like that, but they are not aligned to the true purpose or mission. So all this if there are people in the audience who recognize themselves in this, I would advise them to really start the personal development journey and find a good mentor or coach who can see them in their talents. In their true mission and purpose so that they can really find that out for themselves and make perhaps another choice if that feels good for them. Because we can spend a whole life trying to be something for somebody to regret it. And that is not a well spent life.
Jo: Yeah. I want to also give a more concrete example, because a PhD usually takes anything between three to five, sometimes more years. And I think almost everyone at some point in this time span thinks, oh, I can't bear anymore. I need to quit. But then there is such a stigma around quitting the PhD to get that title, which has such a high value in society, and then to have come so far and then give up is what the feeling of this? Whereas I also had that like a year before I was scheduled to graduate. Basically, I was expected to. And then I think most beach discounts here, I don't have enough results. I don't deserve this. I'm not good enough. I didn't publish all those papers. I was expected to, so what's the point? But then also, I've already invested so much, so I'm already giving the answer myself because of my own experience. And I'm just asking for your opinion or your kind of add on to that. I feel like I made a decision to eventually pull through, even though I felt really weak, and to escape was very tempting. But then the stigma was also like a Democrat sword above me. What if I really quit? What else can I do? Actually, Google, what can you do after quitting your PhD? And there's so many things, but Google wouldn't tell you because nobody puts it online. I actually quit my PhD, and many people do all the other ways to put it. They never finish, so they just take on another project. And just to put it out there, there's no shame in quitting your PhD because you can always put in your CVS. I was a research assistant. I worked on that project. I had this accomplishment. I use these methods so they can always frame it in a positive way because they actually gain experiences and expertise, even if you don't have the diploma, the certificate. But at some point, I figured, okay, I've done this. So I've already invested four years. Let me pull it through. And eventually I did. I didn't get the best grade, but I got the diploma for the PhD certificate. And I can't say that it made me proud, because I know these volunteers are registered with but I don't know, knowing now, even with the certificate in my hand or in my filing system, I know that I would be just as worthy without it. And yet I'm glad I put it through, because I proved to myself that I could still do it, even in my weakest moments. And also opening up to others helped me to put my position into perspective because everybody at some point has these thoughts, and everybody thinks, like every Christian, there's so much pressure, and I'm probably not good enough. So it's important to share these fears with others, to learn that I'm actually not the only one. And not necessarily to compare, but to put into balance that actually what you have achieved is good enough and will be enough to get the title if you really want it. But if you don't, if it doesn't matter for your career path, then you don't have to finish, you don't have to put yourself into this pain.
Natasha: Yes, I totally agree with you, Joe, that's very wise, I totally agree because I've learned we connect our worthiness to diplomas, status, salary functions and symbols outside of ourselves. And then when those symbols fall apart or are not there anymore in life, we feel that we are nobody. I had one director who lost his job and he had a fire, very high function and he told me I'm nobody now. You see, because he connected his full identity with that job, with a function. And as a person says, they connect the identity with a diploma and when they have the diploma, then they are worthy of love or they have the right to exist. And it is very painful when we connect our self esteem, our worthiness with things out of ourselves. And I teach people to connect their identity with who they are and not with what they do. Because we connect our workers with what we do with our job, not with who we are as a person. As a person. We are born with 361 qualities, 361 emotions, we have mind, we have heart, we have morality, we have much more than one diploma and we are born from love, we are born to give our talents, from our free will in service of others. And there are many ways to serve, because service always gives happiness. I thought I was talking about happiness. Happiness comes from service for being very valuable to others and it is always possible for us to find a way to serve. It doesn't have to be through the diploma, it can be also by finding other ways. So researchers, please be very compassionate, lovable to yourself and please try not to feel guilty because it is only increasing the pain. So you really have to be very compassionate with yourself, because you are very hard working people and I believe that life is guiding us and for every researcher it has to find what is true for them.
Jo: Yeah, thank you for the call to action really to change your mindset, as researchers. I have this app on my phone called I Am. I don't know if you also know it. It works on any device, and you can download it from whichever store. And it's for self affirmation or it's affirmed. It reminds us of and what you just said. Feeling guilty is just a thought. And like I just read earlier today, thoughts can be changed, often with others. But if we just don't have the app like the app will tell you you can change this thought of feeling guilty, feeling undeserving. It's just in your head. And you have proof, we all have proof that it's not true. On the other things that are existing.
Natasha: Yes. I tell people sometimes, on Mantra, to say, I have work. I'm not my work. I'm more than my work. I'm not only my work. Thank you. I'm not my work. I am more than my work.
Jo: Thank you. Okay, I think that's the perfect closing statement and, like, a perfect takeoff message for everyone from this episode, including myself. Thank you so much, Natasha.
Natasha: You're very welcome, Jo. I love it, thank you for this opportunity and for the depth of our discussion. Wishing you lots of success with all other projects, and I hope that people will benefit from this discussion.
Jo: Yeah, for sure. We put on all your details in the show notes and the blog post, as always. So if any of you would like to hear more from Natasha, you can follow her on social media. She has a very informative bilingual and maybe sometimes that's a trilingual or soon to come. I'm just putting this out there, LinkedIn messaging, so a lot of we're still being shared free of charge. And you can also consult with her for any one on one coaching if need be. Let's not suffer in silence. But reach out for assistance to do the personal what was the personal responsibility working and to step into our purpose.
Natasha: Yes, that's the way. Jo, thank you so much. And if I could support you in any way, please let me know.
Jo: And we'll get back to you. Like, I'll for sure.
Natasha: Thank you. Thank you. All the best.